Patrick: Hey everybody, I’m Pat V. and you’re listening to the Rise Above Your Best Podcast where I’m not only obsessed with interviewing and researching individuals who have already achieved great success but also in uncovering the research that demonstrates that great success is available to any one of us. And it all starts when we believe in the potential to rise above our best.
Patrick: I had a great guest on today, Lisa Whited from the company WTF. That’s right, WTF. We’ve probably all said that many times but her company actually stands for Workplace Transformation Facilitation and she does a great job of going into organizations and really combining the company’s vision, perhaps even helping them understand what that vision is, and matching that up with the people in the organization and the environment they work in, the place, and the blending of that creates such an incredible opportunity where people are spending a third of their lives at their job. Why not do it in a way that when people show up to work, they feel energized and engaged? And that’s really the mission of her organization and what she does is really helping to blend vision people in place to create a better work environment.
Patrick: She started her company at the young age of 23 and continues to exhibit her drive and passion for what she does. So I hope you enjoy this and are able to take something away that is valuable to your own work environment. So let’s get started.
Patrick: Lisa, I am so excited to have you on the Rise Above Your Best Podcast today. You and I have worked in different circles but never had a lot of opportunity to interact until we did the Disrupt HR Program together earlier on in the year and ever since then, I have wanted to have you on the show and really talk to you more. And really, to start off, your company WTF, that in and of itself is to me a great place to start. I’m sure you get a lot of curiosity around that.
Lisa: Yeah, I do. Well, thank you so much. I’m delighted to be here talking with you. I was thoroughly enjoyed the Disrupt HR process. That was such a fun evening. And so, I’m honored … really, truly honored … that you invited me to talk to you today. Yeah, the WTF, I joke about that that I’ve had at least three midlife crisis, at least three. And it was my last one that I was rebranding, reiterating what this company would be. I’ve been self-employed since 1986 and I was 23 when I started out doing workplace, really looking at workplace design. And then, as I evolved over the years, the work I did evolved. So I honest to God was working with my website designer and couldn’t think of the name. I didn’t know what it would be. And I just jokingly said, “Robert, just call it WTF.” Just as a placeholder. Build the site. We’ll figure it out. And we tried all these different, oh my God, every different type of name you can think of.
Lisa: And it was early morning spinning class, and I all of a sudden, I’m on my bike spinning away and I’m like geez, Workplace Transformation Facilitation. Huh. And it’s all about making the change easier in the workplace. That’s really what I’m all about, facilitating change, making it easier in the workplace. Oh my God. It’s WTF. And I thought that’s crazy. That’s just crazy. But then, the more I sat with it and thought of it and I mentioned it to my husband and he said no, really? You think? You’re crazy. And I said you don’t think it’s a good idea. And he said I don’t think so. And I said well, then I’ll probably do it. So I did. I did.
Lisa: And the other thing is, with WTF, think about it. How many times a day are employees in workplaces … we were just talking about this in the Gallup poll and how unengaged people are at work … they are wandering around just inside their heads going WTF, what are we doing this for? What’s this all about? So it’s a reminder for me to do my best work and to really show up and help people make positive changes in the workplace.
Patrick: Yeah, I can certainly see in the companies that I’ve been in at times of somebody just walking to their cube saying that and just looking at it, WTF.
Lisa: Yeah, oh my God. Another Dilbert world. Another gray, panel workplace.
Patrick: And you know, on another end of this, I would like to be on the receiving end of you calling the company and them saying who’s calling and you say Lisa at WTF.
Lisa: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. I do sometimes … Younger people especially will look at me, God does she know what that means? I’m like yeah, I know what it means.
Patrick: LOL.
Lisa: Right, LOL, right?
Patrick: So 1986, 23. How did you make the decision to go on this path to begin with?
Lisa: Well, it wasn’t that hard because I was working … Right out of college, I got a great job working for a local office dealer that sold workplace furniture and I was a designer within their company. And I was not making a lot of money but I worked hard. I loved what I … I even, honestly, dealt with workaholism, I worked a lot in craziness and was in therapy for workaholism early on in my 20s. I went in and I asked the president for a raise and he said no. Probably the best thing he could have said to me because it just spurred me on.
Lisa: I’m like well, why am I working so hard. I love what I do, yes. But I am working hard and I believe I deserve more money. Why am I doing it for this company? Maybe I should go do it on my own, work as much as I want, and make the money that I want. So that’s how I started my company. It was an early no on a request for a raise.
Patrick: That’s great.
Lisa: There was no looking back.
Patrick: I think there are many people … I know, me, starting my own company was really due to in air quotes, what I’ll call, a bad boss. And I will often joke to say now God bless bad bosses.
Lisa: Yeah.
Patrick: Because they really spur a lot of people to go off and do what their real passion is.
Lisa: Yeah. And you know, I think I was fortunate, I was so young. Right? I didn’t have a family at the time. I didn’t have children. And I was also fortunate in that really, I moved back in with my parents for at least a year to get things going and they welcomed me back into the house. That was another … I was fortunate that way that I could come here and get my house and get started, get established, yeah.
Patrick: So when you go into a company now, what’s the process?
Lisa: Well, the very first thing is I talk about is I believe so much in vision, in organizational vision, in personal vision and what we aspire to do and what’s the impact going to be. So whether it is a board of directors of a nonprofit or a CEO and leadership team of an organization or an individual just thinking about what he or she wants to do in the future, I believe imagining 20 years out, what is it that you want to have? What’s the headline? It’s one of my favorite exercises. So you do the headline exercise. If there were a publication in 20 years, what would the title be? What’s the sidebar? What are the photos or captions? Just a way to think forward in a creative way. So I like to do that as one of the very first steps.
Lisa: The other thing I do with workplaces is I believe in 100% employee engagement in the process of a change early on. So I’ll do a relatively short, anonymous survey from online, like Survey Monkey, asking a few questions. And they’re questions that have to do with three different things. They have to do with the physical work environment, what we call indoor environmental qualities like acoustics and lighting and ergonomics. There’s a set of questions around teamwork and are the people that I need to work with close by? What’s the team environment like? And then, there are questions about what we would call workplace engagement. Are you happy at work? Are your strengths used every day in your work? Things like that. Then I ask a couple of open-ended questions. What’s the vision of this organization? And I ask them just in their own words and a lot of times, they don’t know or there isn’t one.
Lisa: And one of my favorite questions is if this organization were an animal, what would it be and why? And sometimes, I get eye rolls or this is a crazy question but what it tells me when I get the animals back, it tells me a lot about that culture of the organization in a much more colorful and interesting way than if I were to say what’s the culture like at XYZ Organization? If I ask that question, you’d get the well, we’re collaborative or we’re this or that. But when somebody says we’re like an elephant. We’re slow to move. Or we’re a chameleon. We’re changing all the time. They give me a little bit more narrative.
Lisa: So I take the results of the survey and then I do a workshop with the employees. I usually can do a series of workshops where I’m sharing the results because that’s one of the things. The employees need to see the results right away so that they know somebody has paid attention to what they wrote. Share the results. Have a discussion. I facilitate conversations and small group discussion. And then, that just starts to inform what the physical change might be. Some clients are physically going to move to another location. Others might change within the place they’re at. Others, it’s no physical change. It might be an organizational change. But it’s just a way to engage people in that conversation from the very beginning.
Patrick: It’s interesting. You know, our work, even though it deals with different components to employees, it is very much the same in terms of how it lays out. You talk about results and getting that information back to them as soon as possible so that they know that really people have been heard. And I think too, I’m working with a group now that they just had an employee engagement survey done. They just got the results back. And they had almost 80% participation which is, as you know, is really good.
Lisa: Yeah, that’s good. Yeah.
Patrick: And I put that both in the column of strengths and threats. And they looked at me like why 80% and it goes in threats. Because this many people have contributed to hopefully thinking that there will be something done with this and if you don’t, you really run the risk of really alienating those people because they will cynically say this company doesn’t care.
Lisa: Right, right. And then, the next time you ask them, it will start to drop off. It’s the why bother? You get that apathetic … yeah, absolutely. Great, yeah, definitely. Definitely.
Patrick: So I noticed on your site, you talk about vision, people, and place. And you also talk about evidence-based design.
Lisa: Yeah. So there is social science research to back up just about everything that we do. Just like evidence-based … We were talking about evidence-based medicine earlier. Same with evidence-based design so that we’re getting better about saying before we just start planning and designing a space, first getting the employee input and organizational vision is critical. But then also looking at what’s out there for studies that we can look at whether it’s neuroscience or whether it has to do with daylighting. Or maybe you’re designing an environment, a certain type of learning organization, and we know that there are certain things that will impact people one way or another. So to have that and share it, we’re helping to essentially build a case for change. I think it’s good to have that data. So it’s great to have analytics and statistics and surveys and also some research-based articles or abstracts that we can reference.
Lisa: And then, as you know, you can have all the data and all that research in the world, but you still have that emotional piece, right? To help people make the emotional leap of why they should do something in a different way or why they should consider a change. But I think the evidence-based absolutely helps build the case for why we might do something a certain way.
Patrick: I would agree. I think similar on this end. When you started out, what was there for evidence. It would seem to me as though this has become much more relevant today.
Lisa: Absolutely. It’s much more relevant today. When we started out, there was … And honestly, the major furniture manufacturers have done a lot of contributing as far as what we call utilization studies. How do people use this space and how often are they using it? And you see a lot right now around agile working or activity-based work. And that’s because based on sensor studies … This is more space utilization, I’ll come back to the research on neuroscience … But based on the utilization studies which are sensors under a desk, they have found out that 40% of the time a workstation is being used, which means 60% of the time, somebody is not sitting there because they’re offsite or they’re in a meeting room or they’re doing something else. 23% of the time, an office is occupied. The rest of the time, the person isn’t there because often people that get offices are out on the road or meeting with clients or whatever.
Lisa: So that space utilization studies and research have driven how we’re thinking about workspaces and how we use workspaces. So that’s one thing. The evidence-based, the neuroscience, the research around some of the buzz terms you hear now are workplace experience. Because you can do so much with technology. You can have sensors on people as they’re going through a space and how often are they interacting with somebody else. So that and the studies of brains and with neuroscience and scanning. Anthropologists are involved in looking at how we are in work environments together. There’s just a ton more of crosspollinization or experts thinking about this stuff.
Patrick: It’s amazing, right? And to think of people, right? We spend roughly two thirds of our lives in an office setting to some degree if you work for a company.
Lisa: Right, right. More time at work than sleeping in your own bed.
Patrick: Right. Or even seeing the people that are at home with you. You see the people you work with more than that.
Lisa: Yep.
Patrick: And it’s interesting when you talk about the neurobiological components to this because we see that too where they’ve done FRMIs where they’re able to see when they ask people to talk about themselves, the pleasure part of their brain lights up. And I would think that it’s the same with you, right? That that’s what starts to happen. You could probably to see based on the environments that people are in, what parts of their brains become activated.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah. What fires up. And the debate about should people be allowed to listen to music at work or have earbuds in. Well, studies show that for certain tasks, having earbuds in and listening to music actually makes them more accurate. They work faster. And yet, this is the challenge with generations, five generations, in the workplace. You’ve got people that have a perception, well, work doesn’t look like that. Work looks like your butt is in the seat and you’re there eight hours straight and that’s what work looks like.
Patrick: Sure.
Lisa: And be happy. By God, put a smile on your face, right? And one of my favorite stories about this is there was a picture floating around of these students in maybe it was the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And they’re in front of this huge masterpiece, like the Picasso, and they’re all hunched over looking at their phones. And people are like oh God, kids today. They’re not even paying attention and this and that. Well, the real story was the museum had an app and the students were doing their work. They were looking at the painting and looking at the phones. That was part of the assignment. But we jump to conclusions because so much about judgment in the workplace. You judge if somebody is there or not or what they’re doing. Do you find that there’s a lot of that going on? I don’t know.
Patrick: I will go down and I will say I don’t want to hear the word millennial and not working in the same sentence. It drives me nuts because I can find a narcissistic boomer as easy as I can find a narcissistic millennial. This is the stereotyping that goes on is …
Lisa: Stereotyping, yeah.
Patrick: And it’s interesting because it almost builds … If you look at the research on that end is these self-fulfilling prophesies. That’s what we create by what we expect of other people in that environment. So if you don’t expect much from somebody, oftentimes you behave to them in a way that you don’t get much.
Lisa: Exactly. I was at, oh what was her name? Sarah Singer, I think is her name. And she talked about intention. She does a lot around education. And intention with the number 10 on your forehead. So if I’m looking at somebody, I look at them with the number 10 on their forehead with the intention that they are a 10. They’re going to perform. And if you … But if you look at them and go they’re a two, then they’ll meet your expectations. Absolutely, yeah.
Patrick: It’s interesting because this research has been probably since the late ’60s. It first started with Pygmalion, in fact, where they actually had high school seniors and they had instructors that were given basically phony assessments on these kids as high potential/low potential.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Patrick: And then, they tested them and at the end of the semester, these kids fell in these buckets just based on this bogus report that wasn’t even real.
Lisa: Yep, yep.
Patrick: And some people could argue that this is just high school kids, you know? Well, they’ve done it with the Israeli Army and in many other places where it’s been replicated, where what was interesting about the Israeli Army one was they had four different groups going through … or four different instructors that were working with, I believe, it was 104 officer cadets. And after a 15 week course, again, these instructors were given these phony reports on the recruits that had nothing to do with their actual ability yet at the end of this 15 week course in a written exam, these soldiers fell into these buckets based on this report that had no relevance.
Lisa: It had no relevance, yeah.
Patrick: What was even more interesting is when they looked at them and asked of the instructors which they liked better, it was the ones that were the high potential were liked by their instructors better. We create that environment and I think we … unconsciously.
Lisa: Unconsciously, right, yeah. Also, in my work, we do a lot around bias. And we’re biased. We’re just wired that way and we’re biased in so many ways as much as we think that we aren’t. And so, the reality is how do you, again, have that awareness and then counter it. What can we do to be even more aware to actually push ourselves to counter that bias that we have intrinsically. Yeah.
Patrick: And you’re right, oftentimes, it is just a matter of slowing down, of taking time as opposed to our normal we react versus respond. It’s that little bit of space that allows us to say maybe this isn’t quite what it seems. Something else might be going on here.
Lisa: Yeah.
Patrick: You know, I’m curious. Speaking of the research, what about Feng shui. Is that involved?
Lisa: Well, and I know it is absolutely strongly adhered to in the Eastern world. And I do think that there is something to that but a lot of it, when we look at it in the Western world, we think oh, that’s just common sense. Don’t put something behind a door or this or that. But I believe there’s a lot of power in it and people that know what they’re doing and are true Feng shui practitioners and have had all the training, I think that anything that helps us get to a healthier and better environment and more productive, I’m game for. I’m completely game for. And actually, early on when we moved into the house that we’re in now. We’ve been here, I don’t know, 15 years or more now. Oh my God, it’s 2018. Anyway, we’ve been here a while.
Lisa: And I had a practitioner, not just Feng shui but he also, he had another practice. I can’t think of what it is. And he was from … Verner Brendmire, I think was his name and he think he was … I don’t know which country. He was from another country. He came into the house and he did some energy readings. Like he could tell where water was underneath the house, deep, deep, deep down in the earth. And I’m very open, of course, to hearing what people say and he made some recommendations for moving things around and I did it. And I’m still kicking so I guess that was okay.
Patrick: I think that’s real interesting, sure. I made a note here of one of the things that you said. This number here of 23% utilization for an actual office. How does that change certainly how space is being utilized now that we have that information? Do you find even more shared space in that regard for offices or more open space? What’s the trend?
Lisa: So most definitely there’s more sharing of spaces like that. The example is that if you have a conventionally or conservatively designed office space and the president or a vice president has an assigned office, his or her own office, and that person’s on the road all the time and they might say use my office when I’m not here. Totally, it’s okay to use my office. Nobody in the company is going to want to come in and use the president’s office or the vice president’s. They will not do that. They will not cross that line.
Lisa: However, so that’s the old model. Today’s model is and I’ll give you one extreme, a local plant I worked with determined that they did not want any private offices for anybody but what they did was many focus rooms … we call them focus rooms or solo rooms … where anybody could go in and use that space as a private office for two hours or longer as long as they needed. But it was not. They did not have ownership on that space and there was many of these spaces.
Lisa: So what we call choice in the workplace. I can choose to go sit by the window and work there for a while. I can choose to sit in the café and have coffee and work there or meet with somebody. I can choose to go into a private room and shut the door and focus on writing a report or have a private phone conversation. It’s choice. And that’s smart real estate use. It’s the smartest way to use space.
Lisa: And what you find globally is really large organizations can save literally millions of dollars a year when they look at their real estate, the amount of space that they have, compared in the old model of everybody has their assigned workspace versus the new model of I come in and technology supports this. It doesn’t mean that I’m wandering around looking for an open place. I look at a screen, a monitor, and it shows me with green lights or green dots where there’s an open space. I can go sit there and occupy it all day or for three hours or whatever I want. Much, much smarter use of real estate compared to what we’ve seen in the past.
Lisa: But you know, Patten, Maine has no shortage of space. So it’s not necessarily a real push in this state anyway but we have a shortage of people. And so, how can you create really vibrant spaces that people want to come and work in and feel alive in. A lot of these strategies create those environments without giving everybody an assigned space.
Patrick: Sure. Yeah. It’s interesting. The other question that I would have in that regard with open spaces, people transitioning from more traditional space, there must be a lot of concern around privacy. How do I have conversations that not everybody can hear or how do you address that?
Lisa: When I read articles in the Washington Post or New York Times or you see them everywhere and they’re negative about certain types of workspaces, the first thing that I look at are the photo that a company had. And usually, either hard concrete floors. There are hard metal pan ceilings with exposed duct work. There’s lots of glass, maybe brick. You have the worst acoustical scenario you can imagine for working in.
Lisa: So one thing that I think is critical to pay attention to is acoustics. I use a three tier strategy. The first is looking at the ceiling material and the ceiling tile. Is it highly attenuated ceiling material? There’s NRC, noise reduction coefficient rating that you look for. A white noise system. White noise is designed to mask the human voice. So it will not … I’ll still know people are talking but I won’t see every single word. It’s when you hear every single word, you get sucked into a conversation you don’t want to be a part of. That’s distracting, right?
Lisa: And the third strategy is talking to people about how they’re going to be in their new work environment. How do they choose to work together? I call it a working together agreement. It’s a set of guidelines, better written by the employees than a manager, so you don’t have the manager having to enforce guidelines. But if the employees write these guidelines together and they, and we talk about this stuff. It’s etiquette. It’s the stuff we don’t want to talk about in the workplace. But if we can talk about it up front and get really clear around expectations and how we want to be with each other, then it’s easier to hold each other accountable.
Lisa: So an example is a call center. If I’m working with a group of employees and they’re in a different work environment than they’re used to, I’ll say to them do you have a signal you want to use to keep each other in check with the voice volume? And one group said yeah, we’re going to use a lift up their hand and turn as if they’re turning the dial down on a radio. And just doing that is a quick visual cue to others around them that I’m on the phone. I can’t hear. You guys are being too loud.
Lisa: And then, you always … someone will say well, Joe just has a loud voice and that’s just the way he is. No, when Joe goes into the church or library or some other space, I am sure he can bring his voice down. If four year old or five year old kids can do it in the halls of a classroom, I am sure that Joe can work on that. But Joe, nobody wants to bring it up with him. Right? Nobody wants to talk to him about that. It’s like talking to somebody about body odor except not quite so bad really. So you know, it’s like talk to him. So those are the types of things if they just have those healthy conversations early on, the people do it together. The managers are really necessarily part of the conversation. They can … You can start to figure out how people want to work together.
Lisa: But you know, the other thing, all that said as far as needing visual privacy or audio privacy is people do need places that they can go to, that they can duck away. Whether it’s a little nook or a corner or a private room, we need those spaces. It’s not fair to think only the president and senior level people need those spaces. We all do. So that’s the new way of working, that people have choice, and it’s okay for them to get up from their workstation and go somewhere else and work. And just because when I as a manager walks by and Susie’s not in her workstation, she must be goofing off. No, maybe she’s writing a report in another space in the office.
Patrick: That is such great stuff. I’m going to switch gears here for a minute going back again to 1986 because I didn’t realize that you had started at such a young age, 23.
Lisa: Yeah.
Patrick: Where I was at 23, this wasn’t even in my wheelhouse to be thinking of starting something on my own. Obviously, a pretty focused and driven person. And certainly my conversations with people that have been successful and are out on their own or working for companies but have really moved through an organization, it’s generally not from all the positives that they have moved forward. It’s oftentimes been from the challenges that have really shaped them to get them to that next level. And I’m just curious from your own perspective of are there things certainly in your past that you look to and say those moments, as difficult as they were, those really have shaped who I have become?
Lisa: I sometimes joke that I was so young that I didn’t know the difference. I didn’t, you know? I never worked for a huge company. I worked for a smaller company. And then, I just it’s like it seems like a natural step. I also need to share, my father was an entrepreneur and I grew up with him as being a self-employed person. He had some employees as well. And my mother was a public school teacher. So I grew up in this rural state, a solid middle class white person. So I didn’t have any … I had a very supportive family. My mother believed in me wholeheartedly in anything I did and my father was a role model of hard work and fairness.
Lisa: And so, I can’t say that I had a lot of challenges early on. And it’s funny, one of the things you said, if you could go back and tell your 20 year old self something, what would you tell her? And honestly, my 20 year old self wouldn’t have listened so I wouldn’t have tried to tell her anything. So yeah, determined is a word that’s been used to describe me. I am determined but I also have always been very forward thinking and the vision forward. A book on a shelf early on as a kid that I remember seeing here in the house … I keep saying here because we bought the house from my father that I grew up in. So this is the house that I’ve been in …
Patrick: Oh, that’s great.
Lisa: … and he designed it so I feel very fortunate. But there was a book in the living room on the shelves by Norman Vincent Peale, The Power of Positive Thinking. And I was probably, I don’t know, maybe 10 when I found that and read it. And I think I was born an optimistic person but it just cemented this idea of forward looking, thing can always be improved. I’m very interested in continuous improvement both as an individual human being and in organizations. I think almost any process can be improved. So I think that’s what drove me. And yeah, I’ve definitely had failures along the way and things that have been challenging but I try to remember those. Like we were talking about, take some time to just reflect and assess and say okay, what can I learn from that? What could I do differently next time? And then, now the challenge is that I’m in my 50s is to remember what I thought about. But yeah, just keep going forward.
Patrick: I will often say, your past is your power. And it’s all we have in some regards. That’s how you learn where to go forward is what happened in the past, positive and negative.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Patrick: Any quotes?
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, and again, this sort of goes with what we were talking about but in high school, my mother, I think it was when I graduated she gave me a plaque that I still have and it was, “Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off the goal.”
Patrick: I love it.
Lisa: So just a reminder. “Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off the goal.” Just be focused on that.
Lisa: And then, a bracelet I found that I just found out this is a quote by Robert Frost which on certain days when I feel like I need a little bit of power, I’ll wear it. It’s, “Freedom lies in being bold.” Which reminds me to use my voice to speak up. So that one definitely resonates. “Freedom lies in being bold.”
Lisa: And the last one I actually used in that Disrupt HR which really was, I think that was my second midlife crisis. I literally was googling what is the meaning of life? That’s what I was googling. What is the meaning of life, into Google. And the one that came up which I think is … It’s been attributed to Howard Thurman and then questioned if it really is his or not but it’s the, “Do not ask what the world needs, instead ask what makes you come alive and then go and do that because what the world needs is more people who have come alive.” And that definitely resonates with me just in the work that I do. I want … I mean, that’s what drives this work. I want to see people more alive and more engaged and happy in their workplaces and not just checking boxes and being really not just gray in their environment but gray in their whole appearance and feel. That life is such an amazing, exciting thing that it would be awesome if we could get a little bit more of that vibrancy into our workplaces.
Patrick: I couldn’t agree more. With that said, what’s the best way to get ahold of you if people wanted to look at your work and then talk to you?
Lisa: Of course, everybody probably says this but it really is true. We are in the process of updating my website and hopefully it will be ready within a couple of weeks. But the best place is lisa@workplaceTF.com. That’s probably the best way to send me an email and it’s workplace, T as in Tom, F as in Frank, .com. For workplace transformation facilitation which is a mouthful. So just remember WTF.
Patrick: And I will make sure that will be in the show notes as well. There will be a link to it so people will be able to jump right there.
Lisa: Great. Thank you.
Patrick: This has been great. Thank you so much for your time. I’ve really appreciated this. It’s been a great conversation.
Lisa: Oh, I’ve enjoyed it. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.
Patrick: All right, take care, Lisa.
Lisa: Yeah, you too. Bye-bye.
Patrick: I hope you enjoyed hearing Lisa talk about WTF and all the things that she’s doing with her company. In trying to create a better work environment for those that are in the workplace. If you found this valuable, it would be a great honor for me if you went online and placed a comment or a rating. Certainly, I hope you’ll subscribe to this podcast. And until our next episode, I hope you’re able to rise above your best.
Thanks For Listening!
To share your thoughts:
To help out the show: